Curse

MaxBorken · Apr 26, 2013, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayson

You MUST be speaking in code because I don't understand what "give missing the point" is. Do you have a crystal ball that tells you exactly how much an expansion would make? Where'd you get $100,000? Pulling numbers out of this air isn't exactly solid evidence. Unless renovating houses gives you some deeper understanding into the business and cost of developing content for video games?

The answer closer to the truth would be what I previously said. It depends on how many players are willing to pay for new content. All Anet has to do is ask the players on their forums and fansites. Ask on the login screen to see if people are still there to play. People are still in this game after 8 years with no new content. Imagine how many would be here if a new campaign was in the works.

Give them something to come back to and see what happens.

See what happens? That is the WORST business model in he history of business models.
I don't have time to explain it to you. You can take the donkey to the water, but you can't make him drink it.

Game developers and programmers are gamers themselves. They love games. The people who run Anet are accountable to their shareholders. Shareholders are not gamers. They don't play games, they just care about their money.

/sigh
/give up
/slit wrists

Max

Mintha Syl · Apr 26, 2013, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I greatly enjoyed the mesmer and dervish updates. The elementalist update brought some weak things that didn't transfer over so well and an odd Ash Blast nerf, but it helped heroes and got me out just spamming Infuse Health.

I don't know what you think of the elementalist update. Your past posts don't give much detail about particular skills or the update.

I enjoyed mesmer update, even though went too much towards power creep. I have mixed feelings on the dervish one, sure they made the class better than it was though. Elementalist? The first part was decent, and did great with water elites that were useless before. But the second part, I could have done without. I know a lot of people who stopped playing ele after that update and I can't stand the new mechanic. I also didn't like WoC at all while we are at it.
And then they started doing totally unneeded nerfs to single skills, like Leech Signet and Teleports in general.
But the point is not so much what they did in the past, but more what they'd do now, since a lot of changes in the staff happened. When Mesmer and Dervish updates were done the team was different, when first part of ele update was done they still cared a tiny bit. Plus, changing the paragon could probably make it no worse, but if they manage to ruin ranger, it will probably be the time I stop playing.

But this all is a bit OT, aren't we talking about adding content? I don't think class overhauls are included in the request.

Schmerdro · Apr 26, 2013, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Max, "business logic" is a highly subjective term. Just as scientists can have differences of opinion, so do businessmen. I think you're underestimating the complexity of this issue. But that's all irrelevant because businesses can sometimes do things for moral reasons, such as supporting political issues involving racism, gay marriage, abortion etc. Logically, if all companies truly cared about nothing but increasing their profits, then no company would ever get involved in social-political issues.

Bottom line is companies do what they want and I think it's quite presumptuous of an outsider to assume that they fully understand the decisions of a private entity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

aren't we talking about adding content? I don't think class overhauls are included in the request.

While I still don't believe that any of this will happen, I was hoping that a Paragon, Ranger, or Smiting Monk class overhaul would indeed be included. I certainly don't believe that they will ever add any new professions, new skills or any major story-lines, as big as the story in Factions or Nightfall.

MaxBorken · Apr 26, 2013, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmerdro

But that's all irrelevant because businesses can sometimes do things for moral reasons, such as supporting political issues involving racism, gay marriage, abortion etc.

Yes, racism, gay marriage and abortion are the same thing as writing another expansion for a computer game. Absolutely no difference there between tackling hate crimes and coding a mountain range in a computer generated map. Making another expansion is as important as clearing national debt or stopping the Rise of terrorism.

Really?

Just looking at the big picture. Anet has other things to be doing. More profitable things.

Max

ACWhammy · Apr 26, 2013, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I'm really enjoying this thread! Let's keep the debate going! I heard from a little birdie that if it reaches 667 posts we will get a new expansion! yay!

Schmerdro · Apr 26, 2013, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxBorken

Anet has other things to be doing. More profitable things.

I just said that companies get involved in social-political issues, an action that can be unprofitable. Therefore companies care about things OTHER than making money, namely things concerning morality. You've been saying the EXACT same thing for the last 6 posts. We get it, Max, you've repeated your opinion enough times. If you're annoyed that nobody is listening to you it's either because they don't value your opinion or they disagree with it. Either way, you can't do anything about it, so either say something new or change the subject.

By the way, whenever these kinds of project are being discussed, people always bring up Kickstarter but not Indiegogo, Gambitious, Rockethub or other crowd-funding services. And I'm not even sure which would be the best to use in this specific circumstance but I would really like it if people would start saying "let's try crowd-funding GW" instead of "let's try Kickstarting GW." Just a thought.

baal80 · Apr 26, 2013, 09:58 PM // 21:58

While not directly related to the subject, I highly suggest you guys to watch this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...-To-Make-Money

Might be an eye opener for some of you

Wise Watchman · Apr 26, 2013, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by baal80

While not directly related to the subject, I highly suggest you guys to watch this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...-To-Make-Money

Might be an eye opener for some of you

That was a fine speech.

I'd like to see more content for our beloved, but my expectations are very low.

**cosyfiep** · Apr 26, 2013, 11:38 PM // 23:38

can someone sum that up for those of us barely able to load guru let alone a video...(laptop is not THAT good, really).

Schmerdro · Apr 26, 2013, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by baal80

While not directly related to the subject, I highly suggest you guys to watch this: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...-To-Make-Money

In case you don't have 6 minutes to watch it, he's criticising companies that "withhold DLC, ship payable content on game discs, use DRM, charge for cheat codes, try to cripple the used-games market, put free-to-play business models in $60 games, put out less content at higher prices and employ other get-rich-quick schemes" simply because "companies exist to make money," which supposedly invalidates any opposing argument. His point is that "you can make money without being an f-ing prick" and just because something has a purpose for existing, doesn't mean it's immune to criticism.
And yeah, I love the Jimquisition too

jayson · Apr 27, 2013, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxBorken

See what happens? That is the WORST business model in he history of business models.
I don't have time to explain it to you. You can take the donkey to the water, but you can't make him drink it.

/sigh
/give up
/slit wrists

Max

Asking questions isn't a business model. Where in the world did you come up with that conclusion? The reason why you don't have time to explain is because there's nothing to explain. Asking questions, doing surveys and research is what helps companies determine whether or not a certain course of action is wise. GW is well past that stage. People have been asking for content for years. Have you had your head in the sand?

Quote:

Game developers and programmers are gamers themselves. They love games. The people who run Anet are accountable to their shareholders. Shareholders are not gamers. They don't play games, they just care about their money.

Ummm.. thank you for the obvious statement?

It's amazing how you make these statements and yet can't even grasp what you're saying. GW is cheaper and quicker to develop for as stated by Anet themselves and already has an installed playerbase. look at the release times for campaigns vs the dev time for GW2.

GW2 was in development for 4-5 years and dug itself a pretty big hole. They came out saying they sold 3 million copies and yet on a game sales site, only 1.72 million copies show as shipped. So either they lied or almost half of the players asked for a refund. The worst part about GW2 is the game still isn't even finished. From my understanding even simple things like emotes still don't work.

So yeah, shareholders care about money so most of them know that cheaper and quicker garners more profit then a game that had a lengthy development cycle that isn't doing as well as they claim.

We're done here.

Quote:

can someone sum that up for those of us barely able to load guru let alone a video...(laptop is not THAT good, really).

The jist of it is that making money as a business is ok but there's a limit on how much you can charge and how badly you can treat your customers. I'm sure others can add to this.

Reformed · Apr 27, 2013, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayson

GW2 was in development for 4-5 years and dug itself a pretty big hole. They came out saying they sold 3 million copies and yet on a game sales site, only 1.72 million copies show as shipped. So either they lied or almost half of the players asked for a refund. The worst part about GW2 is the game still isn't even finished. From my understanding even simple things like emotes still don't work.

They released to stores what was basically a really late beta and have been ironing out the kinks "world polishing" ever since. There are about a half dozen emotes in the game. Notably capes are absent but an update in a couple days is supposed to add these ugly flag pole banner looking things. Can't comment on the sales figures but that's pretty interesting if its true.

HigherMinion · Apr 27, 2013, 03:38 AM // 03:38

GW2 is a worthless, unsatisfying game. GW is outdated simply because there is no new content, but as Reformed has said, the current dev team (post-eotn, really) has been moving the game into the wrong direction. The problem now is it has just stagnated in this bad state, and the elementalist update part 2 was just the nail in the coffin.

They either need to allow private servers as a service to their fans, or purify some of the terrible skill balances and maybe re-think some of the things they've done recently (such as renaming exhaustion with overindulgence or was it lethargy)

This kickstarter thing, I don't really understand what you're hoping for. Is it more nostalgia? I recently went back and watched an episode of sonic the hedgehog. Pretty bad, but that's what GW is now since Anet neglected it to an irrepairable state. Mainly because their reputation has been tarnished and their dev team is not up to the standard of pre-GW2.

*lemming* · Apr 27, 2013, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayson

GW2 was in development for 4-5 years and dug itself a pretty big hole. They came out saying they sold 3 million copies and yet on a game sales site, only 1.72 million copies show as shipped.

VGChartz doesn't account for digital distribution at all.

Cuilan · Apr 27, 2013, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Elementalist? The first part was decent, and did great with water elites that were useless before. But the second part, I could have done without. I know a lot of people who stopped playing ele after that update and I can't stand the new mechanic.

Can't stand what new mechanic? What was it about the mechanic? What did it do? So vague.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

I don't think class overhauls are included in the request.

A lot of things were mentioned.

MaxBorken · Apr 27, 2013, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayson

Asking questions isn't a business model. Where in the world did you come up with that conclusion? The reason why you don't have time to explain is because there's nothing to explain. Asking questions, doing surveys and research is what helps companies determine whether or not a certain course of action is wise. GW is well past that stage. People have been asking for content for years. Have you had your head in the sand?

Ummm.. thank you for the obvious statement?

It's amazing how you make these statements and yet can't even grasp what you're saying. GW is cheaper and quicker to develop for as stated by Anet themselves and already has an installed playerbase. look at the release times for campaigns vs the dev time for GW2.

GW2 was in development for 4-5 years and dug itself a pretty big hole. They came out saying they sold 3 million copies and yet on a game sales site, only 1.72 million copies show as shipped. So either they lied or almost half of the players asked for a refund. The worst part about GW2 is the game still isn't even finished. From my understanding even simple things like emotes still don't work.

So yeah, shareholders care about money so most of them know that cheaper and quicker garners more profit then a game that had a lengthy development cycle that isn't doing as well as they claim.

We're done here.

The jist of it is that making money as a business is ok but there's a limit on how much you can charge and how badly you can treat your customers. I'm sure others can add to this.

Oh for the love of god.
MY head in the sand? Get a grip.

Anet has made a decision based on real-world issues and reasons. No amount of blurry-eyed dreamers who want playing a freakin fantasy game to be more important than real world business can change that. Stop living in your dream world. You cannot change their decision. Grow up and stop the fantasy. Who do you actually think you are to think you can influence them? Are you so deluded to believe that a bunch of gamers with a fantasy idea can influence a multi-billion dollar organisation?

Grow up and realise that you're not important to them, and stop wasting your life on fantasy. It's not gonna happen.

And yes, we are done here because I can't be bothered to do this any more - you clearly have delusions over your position in this issue.

Also, I'm on the verge of insulting you, which would do no one any good.

Just please get a grip.

Max

HigherMinion · Apr 27, 2013, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxBorken

Oh for the love of god.
MY head in the sand? Get a grip.

Anet has made a decision based on real-world issues and reasons. No amount of blurry-eyed dreamers who want playing a freakin fantasy game to be more important than real world business can change that. Stop living in your dream world. You cannot change their decision. Grow up and stop the fantasy. Who do you actually think you are to think you can influence them? Are you so deluded to believe that a bunch of gamers with a fantasy idea can influence a multi-billion dollar organisation?

Grow up and realise that you're not important to them, and stop wasting your life on fantasy. It's not gonna happen.

And yes, we are done here because I can't be bothered to do this any more - you clearly have delusions over your position in this issue.

Also, I'm on the verge of insulting you, which would do no one any good.

Just please get a grip.

Max

Max, dear boy, I fear you are the one who is deluded. I will most likely never play or purchase anything from Anet after the disservice I have been given here. A lot of people were disappointed with the quality of GW2, not to mention the design is subpar to GW if it *was* perfect. Their lies and lack of care to their customers don't earn them favours, and these are issues in their current game.

Sure, you can sit there spouting about business decisions, but you have to ask yourself, "how many people after long will remain interested in a broken game?" And just look at other developers who listened to their fans and had great things happen. Dark Souls port, Demon Souls server remaining online forever, same with Everquest. Runescape had a major server rollback due to a fan petition too.

What does Anet do? They don't allow anyone to touch their game, they think it's "art" and should only be played one way and that way is very poorly. They spent more money marketing the game than developing it and as a result, it was successfully bad. They pretend to listen to their community, but when it comes to any fan service, that is not part of their plan to be influenced by us.

Cast your minds back to that interview with Guru2fags and that spokesman, who had to break the spell and say "sorry, we're not adding anything else from GW. We made that game and it's dead to us now. No guild halls, no decent PvP, synergy a shit, kthxbai."

MaxBorken · Apr 27, 2013, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

What does Anet do? They don't allow anyone to touch their game, they think it's "art" and should only be played one way and that way is very poorly. They spent more money marketing the game than developing it and as a result, it was successfully bad. They pretend to listen to their community, but when it comes to any fan service, that is not part of their plan to be influenced by us.

Cast your minds back to that interview with Guru2fags and that spokesman, who had to break the spell and say "sorry, we're not adding anything else from GW. We made that game and it's dead to us now. No guild halls, no decent PvP, synergy a shit, kthxbai."

Ah ha. That's kind if what I was trying to get accross

It doesn't make any difference what any fans do or say etc, its not gonna happen. The reasons why aren't actually important here, but that's where I got stuck banging my head against that wall. Anet had made up its mind, and that's that.
Thanks for saying it better than I could

Max

Razer.blue · May 09, 2013, 11:51 AM // 11:51

All the above is nonsence. It is a 20th century way of reasoning. We no longer live in a golden age where multinational companies can afford everything. GW2's success isn't everlasting and moreover if they don't show even a slight interest in their customers they will go down eventually.

Also, the power of a group can achieve a lot. But the group as it right now is by far not large enough.

Wannagotoheaven · May 09, 2013, 06:22 PM // 18:22

I wish something could come out of this as I'm one of those who played gw2 and found it lackluster compared to gw1.

Also why do people keep on comparing gw1 sales to gw2 sales? GW2 build itself on what gw1 achieved. If gw1 never existed it wouldn't have had as much succes.
Just look at diablo 3. I sold extremely well because diablo 2 was such a big hit.
So of course gw2 has sold a lot of copies, but looking at all their updates I doubt it will continue. I wish we had numbers to units sold over the past few months to see how things are really going.